CDU member Roderich Kiesewetter and AfD politician Rüdiger Lucassen discuss defense policy at “Markus Lanz”. It doesn’t take long for it to crack.
War is still raging in Ukraine and since last week China has been worrying the West again with military threats towards Taiwan: Markus Lanz discussed Germany’s foreign and defense policy on Thursday night in this context.
The moderator had invited two off-duty senior officials: CDU foreign politician Roderich Kiesewetter and AfD defense expert Rüdiger Lucassen. It didn’t take long, however, before it became clear: the two have nothing more in common than the same military training.
The guests
- Roderich Kiesewetter, CDU foreign politician
- Rüdiger Lucassen, AfD defense expert
There is a bang between Kiesewetter and Lucassen
The first time things really rattled in the studio when it came to equipping the Federal Republic. “They’re looting the Bundeswehr right now!” Lucassen scolded Kiesewetter. After all, the CDU supports the federal government in “giving large-scale equipment to the Ukraine war”.
Kiesewetter didn’t let that sit. Ukraine would have collapsed without the arms deliveries from Germany, he clarified. The war equipment is urgently needed so that Ukraine can defend its borders.
Kiesewetter explained: Between July and December 2022 – before the Federal Republic had started deliveries – Russia attacked numerous civilian targets and there were many deaths. “They deny that!” Said the CDU man in the direction of Lucassen.
He should please retract this assumption, he promptly demanded. Lucassen said it was not the case that he denied the suffering in Ukraine. “I don’t loot either!” replied Kiesewetter.
Lanz to AfD man: “That wouldn’t matter?”
Moderator Markus Lanz took the opportunity to raise the issue of arms deliveries: Have you delivered arms to the Ukraine? He asked Lucassen. “For me, arms deliveries are out of the question!” he explained. One reason: Germany must maintain its own defense capability.
If no weapons had been delivered, Lucassen would probably not have been able to visit Ukraine last December, Lanz put him through the wringer. “That’s conceivable, yes!” he replied. “That wouldn’t matter?” the moderator asked energetically.
It doesn’t matter, explained the former colonel. From his point of view, with regard to Ukraine, there is only one bad solution, or an even worse one. However, if he had to weigh things up, the interests of his own country would come first for him.
Macron’s position splits Lanz’ guests
Macron had demanded an independent position from the EU in the conflict between China and the USA on Taiwan. “The worst thing would be to think that we Europeans should be followers on this issue and adapt to the American rhythm and a Chinese overreaction,” Macron said, among other things, and thus received a lot of criticism.
Lucassen explained that the AfD also wanted to include a “strategic autonomy in Europe” in its program. Kiesewetter clearly disagreed. He saw Macron’s handling of the alliance with the US as destructive. After all, without cooperation with the Americans, Europe cannot afford security, he explained.
The French President must therefore be slowed down. Germany must position itself and become the “Europeans’ advocate” instead of supporting the solitaire Macron.
Lucassen distances himself from party comrades
And then Lanz brought up something that many people were probably wondering: How does Lucassen feel about the members of his party who recently appeared on Russian propaganda TV?
For example, AfD MP Steffen Kotré regretted on Russian television in February that Germany had delivered weapons to Ukraine that had killed Russians. AfD MP Eugen Schmidt told Russian media in March that there was “no democracy in Germany”.
At Lanz, Lucassen distanced himself from both. He has no understanding for the appearances on Russian propaganda TV, he said. In relation to Schmidt, he even spoke of “treason”.
